To motorswap or not to motorswap, that's the question

"duurtlang" (duurtlang) 08/30/2016 at 13:33 • Filed to: None

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So I’ve got this 1987 Peugeot 205 CTi. It has been hooned to close to death and then hadn’t run for 7 or so years, and it’s taken its toll. That engine needs a full revision, everything we touch seems worn. I’ve found a suitable donor vehicle with a 2.0 Turbo, but I’ll ruin the original-ness of a classic. Dilemma...

The 2.0 Turbo engine in the 605 is of the same family as the 1.6 in the CTi, and as such it’ll be an easy fit. A different (OEM) engine mount and some wiring.

205 CTi 1.6: 105 hp at 6250 rpm, 132 Nm torque at 4000 rpm
605 Turbo: 150 hp at 5300 rpm, 235 Nm torque at 2500 rpm.

As you can see the engines, while from the same family, couldn’t have a more different character. One is a high strung hooligan, the other a torquemonster. There’s an arguement to be made for leaving the car stock.

So, Oppo, should I buy the 605 for the engine swap? Or should I have the original engine revised fully?

My 205 CTi

They’re asking €450. That’s criminally cheap. And only 160k km!

The 605 is located in The Hague, which is 2.5 hours away. Any Oppo member close to there?

SidewaysOnDirt still misses Bowie > duurtlang 08/30/2016 at 13:35

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Why ask? You know what the answer will be.

duurtlang > SidewaysOnDirt still misses Bowie 08/30/2016 at 13:36

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Well, we’re talking about an appreciating classic here. Leaving it stock is a major consideration.

Out, but with a W - has found the answer > duurtlang 08/30/2016 at 13:40

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What would a full engine revision cost? And what’s the mileage on the 205?

duurtlang > Out, but with a W - has found the answer 08/30/2016 at 13:48

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More than the cost of the 605, I’m not yet sure exactly how much. Mileage on the 205 is only 215k km, but given how these are driven and the long time it spent stationary (and 30 years) has taken its toll.

Twingo Tamer - About to descend into project car hell. > duurtlang 08/30/2016 at 13:49

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Would you stand to make a profit if you were to rebuild the stock engine?

Jonee > duurtlang 08/30/2016 at 13:50

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Those 205 CTi’s are definitely getting more and more collectible, and they’re so cool. I’d love to have one. It’d be a literally perfect car for Los Angeles. I’m a leave it stock guy, so that’s my default answer. I imagine there will come a day, if it isn’t here already, where finding a stock one of those will be incredibly difficult. That said, though, that is a tempting modification since it’s still a Peugeot motor. How common is that swap?

BvdV - The Dutch Engineer > duurtlang 08/30/2016 at 13:51

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Those 605s have become quite rare, I can’t remember seeing one in the last couple of years. Wouldn’t it be a nice collection to the ‘duurtlang 80s-90s-00s Peugeot collection’ anyway?

I’m for keeping the 205 stock-ish by the way. Unless the costs of revising the engine would be very expensive compared to the value of the car, in that case any swap would make sense.

Out, but with a W - has found the answer > duurtlang 08/30/2016 at 13:56

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I’d have a slight preference for the engine swap then. While it’s an appreciating classic, the collectors that are willing to pay big bucks for one will probably try to get a low mileage one. On the other hand, the people who just want to buy their childhood dream/relive their youth probably won’t care about 100% matching numbers, or at least not enough to compensate the cost of the engine revision.

duurtlang > Jonee 08/30/2016 at 13:58

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Very common swap. Mostly because it’s basically the same engine but with a factory turbo and a bit more displacement. The non-turbo head of the 2.0L will swap onto the block of the CTi engine, the turbo head might as well (I’m not entirely sure). They’re that similar. The turbo one did benefit from a decade of development/finetuning though.

Wiki link to the engine family . The CTi has the XU5 J, the 605 the XU10 J2TE.

Still though, I’m in the keep it stock camp as well usually. I own a 205 GTi too, with the identical 1.6L engine. That one is healthy, but even if it wasn’t I wouldn’t swap that. It’ll lose its iconic character. With a CTi I believe it’s a little less relevant, but not irrelevant. That’s why I have this dilemma.

duurtlang > Twingo Tamer - About to descend into project car hell. 08/30/2016 at 14:00

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Are you asking me to what extent the value would be different for a 205 CTi with a rebuilt original engine or a 2.0 Turbo? I honestly don’t know. I doubt the bigger enging will bring in a lot of extra value, if any. It might even lose value because of it due to it being a non-original classic.

duurtlang > BvdV - The Dutch Engineer 08/30/2016 at 14:06

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I’m feeling bad for the 605 as well. However, it’s offered for €450. On marktplaats . The people who tend to buy cars in that price segment drive cars into the ground. The chance of that 605 being still alive in 2 years time is close to nill, unless a collector buys it.

I will not buy it for myself. I don’t think I have to explain you anything about wegenbelasting ownership tax, and it won’t really fit any new role in my car park. Besides, I really don’t make that much money and live in an apartment.

(small correction: I’m not a fan of 00s Peugeots. Only the 90s models still offered in the 00s will do. And, maybe, the newer ones starting at the 208)

FSI - alcohol enthusiast with a car problem > duurtlang 08/30/2016 at 14:19

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Is revising the 205's engine and just keeping the 605 an option?? I’ve always loved those

duurtlang > FSI - alcohol enthusiast with a car problem 08/30/2016 at 14:26

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Had I lived on a farm I would’ve simpy bought it. However, as an apartment dweller I can’t just stock up on cars I don’t need. I too love them though. At least in theory, I’ve never driven one. I like the understated classy look though.

BvdV - The Dutch Engineer > duurtlang 08/30/2016 at 14:27

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I get what you mean, similar to the story of your Galant. But it looks so good for being in this price class. Then again, almost nobody wants french boats from the 90s like the XM, 605 and Safrane.

I also get you wouldn’t want to buy it for yourself, the 406 has got the comfortable cruiser covered already, so no need to add all these costs to fill a void that isn’t there. Also, I was sort of joking.

Didn’t realise the 406 coupe was introduced way back in 1997, it looks way too modern for being introduced when I was 2 years old. Sorry for associating you with the horror that is mid-00s Peugeots.

FSI - alcohol enthusiast with a car problem > duurtlang 08/30/2016 at 14:33

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I know that struggle:’(

Swapping the 2.0 into the 205 sound very intriguing though, that much torque and the light weight of the 205 sound like a great combination. Still, if that’s the 605 in the picture it looks as clean as it could get, never seen such a clean one in over a decade.

duurtlang > BvdV - The Dutch Engineer 08/30/2016 at 14:36

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the 406 has got the comfortable cruiser covered already

Exactly!

I am seeing nice XMs rising in price to be honest. A nice 605 might be worth some money as well. Even if I hadn’t had this 205 issue I’d check the 605 had it been closer to me. Would be a nice car to flip, if it’s decent.

Didn’t realise the 406 coupe was introduced way back in 1997, it looks way too modern for being introduced when I was 2 years old.

Thanks for making me feel old. I went to the first year of the middelbare school the year you were born...

duurtlang > FSI - alcohol enthusiast with a car problem 08/30/2016 at 14:40

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Here’s the ad . Note the price. Seller notes no real faults.

Interesting (to me at least) is that my (German) girlfriend’s only aunt had a 605 until a few years ago. We used the winter tires of that 605 on the rally Galant.

BvdV - The Dutch Engineer > duurtlang 08/30/2016 at 14:47

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Sorry for that...

duurtlang > BvdV - The Dutch Engineer 08/30/2016 at 14:48

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No problem :) You’re not overly near Den Haag, are you?

FSI - alcohol enthusiast with a car problem > duurtlang 08/30/2016 at 14:51

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The car sounds way to nice to be stripped for its engine imo, maybe too nice. You probably couldn’t go wrong either way for that price though. Maybe your gf can convince you to get the 605.. or not.

duurtlang > FSI - alcohol enthusiast with a car problem 08/30/2016 at 14:53

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Ha! My gf hates Peugeots for no other reason than because her aunt always owned Peugeots (and still does; 607 and 206+).

BvdV - The Dutch Engineer > duurtlang 08/30/2016 at 14:57

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Nope, but if you ever find a car around the Nijmegen-Den Bosch-Eindhoven triangle I could look at it.

I think DutchieDC2R and Pabuuuu are from that area though, if I’m not mistaken.

FSI - alcohol enthusiast with a car problem > duurtlang 08/30/2016 at 14:59

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And she’s still with you haha? The weird thing is that I hat Peugeot 307s for a similar reason, my ex girlfriend’s got a puke green 307.

duurtlang > FSI - alcohol enthusiast with a car problem 08/30/2016 at 15:04

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Must be true love, eh?

My ex had a frog eyed Corolla. In really nice condition. Still, such a hateful characterless ‘appliance’ car. I liked my then-DD Golf much better, despite it having over 3 times the kms and twice the age (and less hp). It was more fun. And I don’t even like VWs. I like to imagine my Corolla hate doesn’t have anything to do with my ex.

RallyDarkstrike - Fan of 2-cyl FIATs, Eastern Bloc & Kei cars > duurtlang 08/30/2016 at 15:10

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I would feel bad for the 605 if it were in good shape. I’d be fine with a swap as you can’t drive the car as it currently sits, so anything to get it on the go would be a win-win.

I guess the question would be cost...is it cheaper to swap vs. just getting the current CTi engine sorted? :)

FSI - alcohol enthusiast with a car problem > duurtlang 08/30/2016 at 15:15

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True love and justification to buy more Peugeots. I’m actually ok with my hate/dislike for the 307 because well, it’s meh car to begin with. Mk2 Golfs rock btw

Twingo Tamer - About to descend into project car hell. > duurtlang 08/30/2016 at 18:01

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I was more meaning, if you plan to sell the car, would you make a profit doing a proper restoration? Engine rebuilds can get pricey and while values are climbing theyre not yet worth really big money. Might make sense do to the non original swap anyway if you don’t stand to make money out of keeping it original.

duurtlang > Twingo Tamer - About to descend into project car hell. 08/30/2016 at 18:38

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The problem is that I don’t know to what extent it needs to be rebuilt. I’m not going to sink money into it when it can still suck afterwards. The turbo route will actually be cheaper, probably.

Autoeccentric > duurtlang 09/02/2016 at 14:38

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Surely, it’s already shakey enough. Sticking waaaay more torque in it will just twist it into a DNA shaped metal mess.

duurtlang > Autoeccentric 09/02/2016 at 14:41

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It’s too late now. The donor has been bought already .

Autoeccentric > duurtlang 09/02/2016 at 14:44

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Isn’t that the same engine that went into the Xantia?

duurtlang > Autoeccentric 09/02/2016 at 14:48

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Yes. Citroën Xantia/XM/Evasion, Peugeot 406/605/806, Fiat Ulysse and Lancia Zeta. Maybe more, I’m not entirely sure, but I think this is it.

Autoeccentric > duurtlang 09/02/2016 at 14:53

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Got to be a massively under stressed motor.

Still worried about that poor little 205's structural intergrity.

One of the cars I’m on a constant look out for is the Xantia Activa. There’s 25 left in the UK:

https://www.howmanyleft.co.uk/vehicle/citroe…

First, though, is having the budget to look after this idiosyncratic money pit.

duurtlang > Autoeccentric 09/02/2016 at 15:09

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The standard 2.0L 8v engine has about 120-122 hp or so. With a turbo you’re at 148-150 hp. Big increase in torque though.